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Pat Hiban on Property Management Marketing and the Future of Real Estate

Pat Hiban on Property Management Marketing and the Future of Real Estate

Today I’m talking with Pat Hiban, the man, the myth, the legend.  A true real estate rockstar. He’s held the title of number one agent in the world at both Re/Max and Keller Williams.  

He’s currently host of The Real Estate Rock Stars Podcast, and he runs Rebus University.  

And in our chat today, we’re going to cover the role of personal branding and media and how Pat has used that to really propel where he is at today and to build a media empire.  And to have a pretty big footprint within the real estate space.

So, if you are thinking about diving into media, if the thought has crossed your mind, if you’re attracted to that strategy but unsure what the return is going to be, this is the episode for you.

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Topics covered:

  • (01:25) – Background Leading up to Today
      • (01:32) – Pat explains how he got into the real estate industry.
      • (02:45) – The turning point for Pat where he got serious about his career.
  • (03:45) – Personal Branding
      • (04:08) – Pat’s thoughts on personal branding and media for small businesses.
      • (08:19) – Discussing why traditional methods of marketing may be less effective than they were in the past.
  • (10:22) – Real Estate Success
      • (10:40) – Recurring themes Pat has seen come up in association with success during his podcast run of over 700 episodes.
      • (12:11) – The minimum threshold a real estate business must meet in order for it to be considered an actual business.
      • (13:53) – Pat’s thoughts on property management as opposed to traditional brokerage.
  • (16:14) – The Future of the Industry
    • (16:28) – Discussing eXp Realty.
    • (21:41) – Thoughts on real estate training.
    • (26:06) – The future of Pat’s media platform and potential opportunities it creates.

Rapid-fire Questions:

(28:42) –  If you could do it all over again what advice would you have given yourself at the beginning of your career?

Resources mentioned:

Where to learn more:

To get in touch with Pat or connect with his media empire, find him on his main website PatHiban.com.  

To follow him on social media, head to his Facebook page, his Instagram profile and his Twitter account.

Transcript:

Jordan: 0:00:00.8 Welcome closers, today we have another episode of The Profitable Property Management Podcast coming at you. This is Season Two on sales.

0:00:06.5 I’m your host Jordan Muela, and every week I interview world-class property management entrepreneurs and industry experts who share actionable insights to help you grow your property management empire.

0:00:17.0 Whether you manage 100 units or 1000, this broadcast is designed to help you see the big picture and to give you the tools and tactics that you need to get to the next level.

0:00:25.3 Today, I’m talking with Pat Hiban, the man, the myth, the legend. A true real estate rockstar. He’s held the title of number one agent in the world at both Re/Max and Keller Williams.

0:00:37.8 He’s currently host of The Real Estate Rock Stars Podcast. He runs the Rebus Training Academy. Rebus University rather.

And in our chat today, we’re going to cover the role of personal branding and media and how Pat has used that to really propel where he is at today and to build a media empire. 0:00:58.1 And to have a pretty big footprint within the real estate space.

0:01:01.5 So, if you are thinking about diving into media, if the thought has crossed your mind, if you’re attracted to that strategy but unsure what the return is going to be, this is the episode for you.

0:01:11.6 If you enjoy this show, head over to iTunes to leave us an honest review. The more reviews equals better guests to help you grow your property management empire.

0:01:19.0 So let’s dive in. Welcome to the show Pat.

Pat: 0:01:21.2 Awesome. Thanks, thanks for having me. It’s going to be fun.

Jordan: 0:01:25.0 Yeah, I am stoked. So, let’s start here. Let’s grind and go all the way back. How did you get into real estate?

Pat: 0:01:32.5 You know, everybody thinks that it was by design. Just like somebody would get in and be a lawyer or doctor or something. It was completely not by design.

0:01:45.0 My life was not by design at an early age. It wasn’t until I was in real estate that I started trying to design my life.

0:01:54.1 But at that point in time I went to college and I got a degree in Sociology. Simply because it was the only major that I could get out on time with. Because I didn’t pick a major because I didn’t know what I wanted to do.

0:02:09.3 And then they told me that I had to pick a major if I wanted to graduate on time, so I picked the major with the least amount of credits.

0:02:15.2 And so, I graduated in Sociology. I was going to maybe do something at probation and parole. It didn’t work out. I tried to get a sales job. No one would hire me. 0:02:27.9 I had a really low GPA in college.

And so, somehow I got the idea that I was going to go into real estate and I just went and got my license and became an agent. It just kind of happened. That was more like the universe just put me in that place.

Jordan: 0:02:45.5 And what was the inflection point from when that went to being a banal, disinterested existence like your average agent, to actually turning into an exciting career for you.

Pat: 0:02:55.8 You know, I think my biggest shift came about year three. You know, when I went from being an agent who wasn’t focused on buyers and sellers – I was mainly focused on buyers because they were easy to get.

0:03:11.2 In year three I became focused on getting listings and that really changed my business model and how I did things.

Jordan: 0:03:22.0 Got it. So, for a lot of folks, transitioning from buyers to sellers is when the magic starts to happen.

Over time, if we just fast forward to today, your situation has changed pretty dramatically. Like I said in the intro, you have a significant footprint within the real estate space. Your name is known pretty broadly and in large part, that is because of the media empire that you have built.

0:03:45.8 How do you think about the usage of personal branding and media, and the stage and the context in which it is appropriate for small businesses.

0:03:54.1 Whether they be a property management shop or a real estate shop, and pretty similar across small businesses in general.

You made such a significant investment over time to build what you have now, but what’s the stage in context in which that really makes sense?

Pat: 0:04:08.4 Yeah, that’s – I mean, that’s a great question and I’d love to talk about that and how things have changed somewhat.

You know, there’s a couple of things going on and maybe this is just how I’m seeing it now. Because I’m kind of in a different world.

In 2010, I sold my team business to one of my top agents who still runs it today. And I still get profit off of the top of that. 0:04:37.3 But I really haven’t been involved in it for seven years.

And I became an investor. Right? 0:04:43.8 And invested in single-family homes and multi-family and a shopping center and things like that.

And then about three years ago I decided to go into the world of digital marketing essentially. 0:04:55.2 With my podcast Real Estate Rock Stars and with Rebus University, where we train other real estate agents.

0:05:00.3 And so, what happened is I started seeing marketing a lot differently. To answer your question. I mean, the marketing that I see nowadays, and I think it’s still true for real estate agents as well, is it’s much harder, if not impossible, to just kind of brand the old fashioned way.

Where the real estate agent would put a big ad in the paper with their high school graduation picture on there and say, “These are the houses that I got” or things like billboards and television ads.

0:05:33.3 Not that it can’t be done, it still can be, but I think it’s becoming more and more difficult.

0:05:37.8 You’re seeing a lot more branding, so to speak, in daily snippets on all the social media channels. You’ve got to look at social media channels as additional television channels that are added to the plethora of television channels that people see between 8:00pm and 10:00pm at night. 0:05:58.1

Things are being watched by people all day long. So if you look at people like Gary Vaynerchuk and some of these social media stars, Grant Cardone, that sort of thing.

They’re putting out little pieces here and there all day long. 0:06:16.2 All formats. And that is having a much better impact, I think, than if they were to just – I mean, imagine if Gary Vaynerchuck went straight to television or Grant Cardone went straight to television. Right? They would just never be able – they would have never built the businesses that they have.

0:06:40.3 So, I think we have to stop thinking – it’s time to stop thinking like a traditional marketer, you know, and start thinking like a marketer of today.

0:06:49.5 And that’s the big shift that I’ve had. Even recently in the things that I’ve changed in my business and how I go about selling our university courses and getting listeners to the podcast.

Jordan: 0:07:01.9 So that’s a really interesting stream of thought. Approaching the overall activity either from the perspective of customer acquisition cost over here, which is absolutely going to be the focus if you’re doing billboards, radio, etc. 0:07:14.7 Ultimately it’s going to come down to customer acquisition cost and lifetime values.

0:07:18.6 But, on the other extreme, social media, the Gary Vaynerchuk method, I mean that sounds so odd even when you say that, “What if Gary Vaynerchuck was running billboards.”

It’s just like conceptually there’s a real disconnect because what Gary is about is actually having the relationship over time that eventually may or may not lead to a conversion, but the tracking is something that he doesn’t – tracking analytics is not the thing that you hear him talking about.

0:07:44.3 You’re doing the podcast and you’re doing all this media stuff now. Seven years ago, are you saying – so you said you’ve been out of the day to day agent activities for seven years, is that correct?

Pat: Correct.

Jordan: 0:07:56.1 So that really was not a factor for you at the time. Social media was not big on the radar screen when you were involved, is that accurate?

Pat: 0:08:02.5 Yeah, not really. Not really. I mean, it wasn’t like it is today where agents are able now to go live all the time, every day and to build their brand online. Right? 0:08:16.0 Instead of the traditional methods. So.

Jordan: 0:08:19.7 Do you think that there’s an actual reason why billboards or radio would be any less effective than they would have been in the past? Why do you think the ROI may have changed?

Pat: 0:08:30.8 Well the things with those methods is, number one they’re very hard to track. Right? 0:08:36.4 You know, unless you’re asking everybody that calls or emails in, you know, “What prompted you to email us?”

And then they give you a – for real estate agents, they could give you a vague answer. “Oh, I see you everywhere” or “I don’t know” or “I went to your website”. You know what I mean?

So, I think that there’s certainly agents that I know, both in the town that I had my business in, which is Maryland, and the town that I live in now, which is in South Carolina, that are building their businesses on branding through traditional means.

0:09:20.0 But, you know, it’s kind of like advertising to a broad spectrum of people. To everybody, whether they’re looking to buy a house or not. Buy or sell a house or not.

0:09:34.9 Where if you go Facebook or any of these social media platforms now, you can use predictive analytics that are provided by Facebook and Instagram and that sort of thing to try to determine who is mostly likely to move. Or maybe just your sphere of influence. Or just people in a certain zip code.

0:09:58.0 You can do it a lot more – you can pinpoint it a lot more and I think it’s a lot less expensive.

Jordan: 0:10:02.5 Got it. So it’s not that those things don’t work, it’s just that there’s more precision available with more modern means. Got it. That makes sense. 0:10:11.5 So, here’s a question I have for you, you have done the podcast – what 500+ episodes by now?

Pat: 0:10:18.5 Yep. Going close to 700 almost.

Jordan: 0:10:22.1 Wow, 700 episodes. So, in that time, what sticks out for you as being the recurring themes that come up over and over again that you associate with success.

By 700 episodes, I mean it’s got to just be undeniable. What are the key things that stick out for you?

Pat: 0:10:40.5 You know, I mean they’re going to be cliches. Right? But I’ll say them nonetheless. 0:10:47.7 It’s going to be like, you need to hustle. Right? You have to – you got to get out and put the time in.

Nothing great comes without money. 0:10:58.2 I mean, nothing great comes without sacrifice. Nothing great comes without sacrifice.

And speed to lead for real estate agents. We’re in a speed to lead society, which means that when the lead calls in you should be right there on it within seconds. Not even minutes anymore. A day later is like idiotic. Right?

0:11:24.1 Speed to lead and you know, watching your profit. Just like any business. You know, real estate agents are as guilty of this as anybody.

You know, chasing a lot of squirrels – looking at, “Oh there’s a squirrel there, let me get that, let me invest in that.” And then at the end of the day they look down and they’re not making any profit. 0:11:43.6 And there’s a lot of these teams and teamaridges as I call them.

That don’t really pull in a respectable profit if any at all. So, it’s – they’re letting their ego get in the way and they’re of the belief that someday they’re going to be able to sell their team, which is very difficult. 0:12:06.9 0:12:11.3

Jordan: 0:12:11.4 So what is the minimum threshold that a real estate business must meet in order for it to be considered an actual business as opposed to basically owning a job? Have you seen organizations that have crossed that threshold?

Pat: 0:12:26.4 Yeah, I mean there have been teams that sold. They generally sell – you know, the last couple that have sold have sold at two and a half x, or two and a half ibda 0:12:35.0.

So, you know, it is possible but here’s the thing, you don’t have many buyers. 0:12:42.6 Most real estate agents, like if you’re, let’s say you have a real estate team that makes four hundred thousand dollars profit, which is a lot of profit? Right? At the end of the day.

0:12:53.5 Two and a half ibda, that’s a million dollars. So, you know – a lot of real estate agents don’t got a million bucks.

The banks don’t really want to loan a million dollars to someone on a real estate agent because markets fluctuate.

0:13:07.4 So, it’s a little difficult. Not to say it can’t be done, because it is happening. I think that the – to answer your question, the key factor is whether the rain maker, whether the person that’s branded themselves is actually in the day to day business.

0:13:25.1 If you have a $200,000 dollar a year person that you’re paying to run it, right? And you’re still making $400,000, then that’s a real business.

0:13:37.1 But if you’re making $400,000 and you’re in there all day long. Right? And you’re going on appointments, that doesn’t count. You know what I mean? 0:13:48.1 It has to be a business that runs on its own without you.

Jordan: 0:13:53.5 Totally. I get it. So, I’m curious to get your take on property management in general. The blessing and curse of property management is recurring revenue. Right?

It’s a blessing because recurring revenue is money in your pocket, money when you’re sleeping. 0:14:05.1 But the downside is it can also breed a lot of complacency.

In many ways, that’s why the industry is known as being a little bit backwards and why it lacks that sales focus. 0:14:14.4 It’s the complacency that can just come from recurring revenue.

0:14:16.5 We could grow, or we could not. We can just go sideways.

0:14:20.8 How do you think about the opportunity on the property management side of the business as opposed to the traditional brokerage side?

Pat: 0:14:28.4 I think it’s a good hedge. And I think real estate agents should think about this because markets do ebb and flow, and they will ebb and flow in the very near future, I believe.

So, having a property management division is a great way to protect yourself against that. Right? 0:14:47.5 To have something else that’s paying you money. Right?

0:14:51.9 Because people are still going to need to rent. 0:14:53.3 Even if the market – people stop buying, guess what they end up doing? They continue to rent.

0:15:01.6 I don’t think you’re going to see a – I don’t want to say ever, because that market fluctuates as well, but right now, we’re in a renter nation where more and more people are renting.

0:15:15.1 Less and less millennials are buying homes. More and more people are seeing renting as a legitimate option for their life.

0:15:27.5 And that’s why you see so many cranes building apartment buildings. They’re not stupid. Right? I mean, there’s a reason for this.

0:15:36.8 So if you can build a property management business and the transactions slow down, which they will as far as real estate commissions, it’s going to pay you in those months that you might not have a settlement. Or your settlements are less income than your expenses.

Jordan: 0:15:55.0 Yeah. And vice versa. If you’re running a property management business and you’re ignoring the brokerage side.

For example, some property managers their whole schtick is, “Hey we’re pure property management, we don’t mess with the brokerage side and therefore it’s easier for us to get referrals.”

0:16:07.7 At the same time there’s just so much natural synergy between the two it doesn’t really make sense to ignore one or the other.

0:16:14.0 So, stream of consciousness here. A couple of things I want to get your thought on. One: eXp Realty. What do you think is the future of that organization? There’s a lot of noise and buzz kind of happening around that. What’s your take and perspective on eXp?

Pat: 0:16:28.4 Ok, so Jason Gesing came on my show. I haven’t released it yet. And the owner, Glen, I think his name is, came on as well. A couple years ago.

0:16:41.6 And I’ve had some agents that have been staunchly against it. So I’ve kind of seen both sides. I haven’t really – I haven’t really formed an opinion one way or the other.

0:16:52.9 I do believe that bricks and mortar real estate offices, law firms, everybody right, will dissipate. Right?

You’re going to see less and less of that because a lawyer can work out of their garage. 0:17:08.3 I’m in my garage right now. I don’t know where you are, but you’re somewhere with no pictures on the wall. Right? 0:17:14.6 So you’re seeing more and more of that. Right?

And I think you’re going to naturally see it in real estate. I think that, like you said, the buzz – whenever there’s a lot of buzz, you have to take a step back and say, “Well, a lot of buzz is emotional.” You know what I mean. Like, is there some – how legitimate is it? How strong of a company is it? How will it last?

0:17:50.6 I mean, I think that there will be companies like that that do well in the real estate brokerage business. I don’t know if it’s going to be eXp themselves or not.

0:18:02.3 They’re certainly the first one there, which helps a lot, but they’re going to have challenges just like any growing business. 0:18:12.0 And I haven’t seen under the hood, right?

So I really can’t speak to how much money – I’ve heard some people, they’ve written some blogs and articles that have said they don’t have much money, so to speak, to invest in tech and things like that. 0:18:31.1 So I don’t really know. It’s certainly interesting to watch.

I mean, I’m on social media a lot with my courses on Rebus University. It forces me to be on social media a lot and I see a lot of people promoting it because it’s a way for them to build their 0:18:48.6 [Inaudible].

I know that there’s a lot of people that have joined and have told me, “Hey listen, I missed out on Keller Williams and I’m not going to miss out again”, so they’re kind of rushing in there trying to build down lines.

Like they see some – a lot of Keller Williams guys now flying jets and buying ten million dollar places to live in and stuff like that.

0:19:18.4 And they say, “I want to be that.” 0:19:19.8 And that’s cool right? That’s the American way, right?

0:19:22.6 Everybody wants to win the lottery if they have an opportunity. So I think you have a lot of people flocking to that.

Course, at any of these deals, whenever you have a multilevel thing, there’s always 100 people or so, or less, that kill it.

0:19:43.2 And then the majority of the agents don’t really benefit and profit sharing. They don’t recruit.

They think they’re going to be like Pied Piper where they’re blowing a flute and all these people and animals are following them to go over to whatever company to join.

0:19:58.8 And the reality of it, because I’ve been there myself – you know, I’ve been at five different real estate companies over time, so I can speak first hand. You know, the reality of it is people don’t follow you. They’re scared. 0:20:08.3 I mean, some people might.

And if you’re actively hyper-focused on it – like I know some people now that are at eXp that that’s like their one thing. That’s like their thing that they’re doing.

Jordan: 0:20:20.3 They’re like full-time recruiters.

Pat: 0:20:22.4 Flying around the country and I think they’re going to be very successful because that’s what they’re focused on.

0:20:27.8 But for the majority of the agents, people just won’t follow you for the most part. You don’t end up with much profit share, if any. 0:20:38.0 Because you’re too busy selling houses.

And then there’s the question of does it – is the economic model good. I mean, it certainly – I forget what it is, I think it’s 80/20 and then 10% goes back to the company and 10% goes back to the people that recruited you in the form of a down line.

0:21:01.1 So yeah, I mean, 80/20 is not bad at all for agents out there. 0:21:07.7 Is it enough for the company to keep running and do what I don’t know.

If not, they’ll just change their fees and start charging transaction fees or maybe they already do, I don’t know.

Jordan: 0:21:17.2 Got it.

Pat: 0:21:18.2 It’s hard for me to issue an opinion without looking under the hood.

Jordan: 0:21:20.9 Fair enough. So what I’m hearing is, agnosticism about the company itself. You haven’t looked under the hood. But some category optimism of the digital brokerage, the cloud brokerage, lowing the overhead.

0:21:36.5 A little bit of lack of clarity about the whole MLM model, which obviously is what’s driving a lot of the buzz that’s happening right now.

0:21:41.8 But the bigger conversation this is related to is, what is the fundamental value that a consumer, i.e., an agent, should expect of a brokerage.

0:21:51.9 Now, there’s an interesting intersection with what you do with Rebus, because a lot of a brokerage is supposed to do is training.

0:21:58.1 So, how should you get that training? Should you get it from going through an organization like Rebus? Or should that be the responsibility of Keller Williams or eXp or RE/MAX or whoever?

0:22:08.7 So, when you think about the fundamental expectations that the agent should have towards the brokerage, how would you advise someone?

Pat: 0:22:17.6 Well, generally what happens, is the brokerage provides education that’s good for beginners.

So, like I have students, I have eXp students, I have RE/MAX students, I have Keller Williams students, credentials – you know, pretty much the gamut we have taking our courses. Right?

0:22:36.0 And Keller is known for doing more education than pretty much all the other brokerages. That’s essentially what they’ve built themselves around.

They’re an education company disguised as a real estate company, is what Gary has always said for years. 0:22:53.9 And they offer a lot. Right? For the agents.

But, I still have agents at Keller Williams that are very aggressive and want their team and their agents to have even more deep down, like real deal stuff.

And that’s kind of where our niche is. We provide – we’ve got a program called The Certified Listing Agent where we had eight agents from around the world do their listing appointments in camera – in front of a camera. 0:23:27.4 And then we analyzed each one.

0:23:31.0 So we made a course. It’s like 12 hours of video with 50 some quizzes in it. So that if you run an agent through there, they should win every listing appointment they ever go on because it immerses them so well in the how to win a listing process.

0:23:48.6 Now there’s no courses like that. Right? For the most part. That I know of. 0:23:51.4 And so that’s where we differ. But I think to some extent it’s the agent.

0:23:57.1 So here’s a story. So decades ago, this is how RE/MAX, you know, came on the scene. They basically said, “Hey we’re 100% split.”

And you know, the agent is just there to sell houses. Right? 0:24:15.6 And it was a great deal. Right? It was a great value proposition. Right? But only for agents that were selling three or four houses a month.

0:24:24.3 Like when I went to RE/MAX, I was at a company Long and Foster and I went to RE/MAX, they actually had a rule, right?

You had to sell three houses a month for like 12 months in a row before they would even hire you. 0:24:38.6 Because you wouldn’t be able to afford it.

But once you afforded it, it was great because you got all your own property calls. Which at these traditional companies, you didn’t get.

0:24:49.1 So, but then over time, agents started demanding more and expecting more and then they became more of a traditional model.

0:24:58.2 That’s kind of where they lost a little bit of their mojo. Right? Is because it wasn’t as unique anymore because agents wanted more.

0:25:07.4 And so now you can get a 60/40 or a 50/50 or whatever and they’ll teach you stuff. 0:25:15.6 So it’s an interesting world. I don’t know.

I think there’s always going to be agents that are just, “Give me the bottom line.” Right? “I don’t need the education, just give me the bottom line.” Right?

0:25:25.5 You know, most of real estate, really – a lot of real estate you learn from getting your head kicked in, right? You just take a buyer out and you lose it. You know?

Someone else wins a listing. You get your butt beat on the listing appointment and then you figure out, you know, you try to learn how to not let that happen again.

0:25:40.8 So, I don’t think it’s for everybody. Right? I don’t’ think that model’s for everybody. Just like RE/MAX was never for everybody in the beginning.

It was only for people that didn’t’ care about all the other crap. And so, most of the companies that do provide educational, most of the education is elementary, let’s just say.

Jordan: 0:26:06.2 Got it. So going back to the question that I asked you at the outset related to building a media empire.

What do you think about the opportunities that have opened up as a result of you having the footprint and the digital voice that you have?

I know for me, having a podcast, doing webinars, all that stuff, there’s a certain level of serendipity that is just – kind of comes from relationships and networking, etc.

Do you view Rebus as being the logical extension of what’s going to be your primary focus over the next couple years?

Like what’s the future and the trajectory of how you plan on using the platform that you have? That you can see in the near term?

Pat: 0:26:48.0 So, you know, I’m learning a lot, put it that way. I mean, it hasn’t been easy. It’s been easy but it hasn’t – it’s been easy to do it. Right?

It’s easy for me to talk to people. I’m a natural talker. Right? I can talk to somebody all day that I just met. But – providing they’re engaging and they’re interested – interesting. But, that’s easy.

0:27:10.8 What’s hard about this business is actually turning a profit on – a consistent profit on what you’re selling through the business.

0:27:21.1 So, yeah, it’s going to be my focus. I’ve determined that. That’s really what I’m focusing on now. And you’re right, there’s a lot of serendipity.

I mean, tomorrow night I fly to Tampa to meet with two guys who run two different types of companies. One is a company that sells online classes to accountants, and the other is a company that helps real estate agents with online leads.

0:27:53.3 I met them through doing the podcast and things like that. Just like I’m meeting you now, today. Right? 0:28:01.6 So one thing does lead to another. Right? And we’re going to mastermind the three of us. All day on Thursday. About how we can grow our businesses together.

0:28:12.3 But my point is it is something that gets better and better and better, but it’s sort of like real estate sales. In the same way, or probably opening a property management business. Right?

Your first couple of years you’re just getting started. You know what I mean? It takes a long time. 0:28:30.4 It’s like for Gary Vaynerchuck, it was slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly, suddenly. And it’s the same thing.

Jordan: 0:28:39.0 Overnight success. Exactly.

0:28:42.2 Alright, so final question of the interview. Pat, if you could wind the clock back to ten years ago today, what is the one piece of advice that you would have grabbed yourself by the shoulders and done everything within your power to get your previous self to fully buy into?

Pat: 0:29:02.7 Well, I would probably go – if it were 20 years ago today, I would probably say buy two houses a year. Right? And build your personal portfolio.

Ten years ago puts you at like 2008, which would have been a terrible time to start buying. But then, but you would have dollar cost averaged into this, so it still would have been a good piece of advice actually, because you would have probably had seven — of the last ten years you would have had seven or eight that were – that you did well in buying two houses a year.

0:29:41.9 So I think it would be that. It would just be buy a house here buy a house there. 0:29:45.1 Dollar cost average houses, like you dollar cost average a retirement account. If you just think like that, it’s a great way to build your wealth slowly but surely.

Jordan: 0:29:57.1 Love it. Build wealth. Over time. Slowly. Pat, it’s been a pleasure to have you on. If folks want to find out more about what you’re up to in your organization, what’s the best place for them to go?

Pat: 0:30:05.2 Yeah, well, you can learn all about me at PatHiban.com. Of course on social media, my Instagram is @IamPatHiban. And on Facebook, everywhere else, just type in my name. I’m easy to find. Twitter I’m @PatHiban. So I’m all over the place, very easy to find.

Jordan: 0:30:24.7 0:30:24.8 [Inaudible] that’s what you want to be able to say.

Pat: 0:30:29.5 And the podcast is Real Estate Rockstars.

Jordan: 0:30:31.5 Real Estate Rockstars, it’s a great show. A lot of big picture thinking being applied to one vertical which is what I’m trying to do here. Pat thanks again for carving out some time, it’s great having you on the show.

Pat: My pleasure. It was fun, let’s stay in touch.