24: Frank Klesitz on Reducing Churn With Database Marketing
Today, I am interviewing Frank Klesitz, the CEO of Vyral Marketing. This is a company focused on helping professionals and small business owners increase referrals and sales using their existing – keyword ‘existing’, customer database.
Frank and his team know that your customer list is losing roughly 10% of its value every month through natural decay if you do nothing. Their video marketing strategy can turn those numbers around and help you get more juice out of what you already have instead of throwing marketing dollars at new leads.
Today we’re going to be talking all about database marketing, which is really content marketing pointed at a specific list of the contacts that you already have.
Frank covers the fundamentals, shares his strategy to 10x your results, and even writes an engagement email on the spot for a property management firm.
- (01:19) – Background Leading up to Today
- (01:29) – Frank details how he ended up starting Vyral Marketing.
- (03:31) – The early days of using videos as content marketing.
- (08:00) – The four steps of Frank’s first marketing plan.
- (08:01) – Reconnect with your existing, neglected database.
- (08:06) – Have a plan to build your database of your target market.
- (08:17) – Start publishing two educational Q&A type pieces of content a month.
- (08:31) – Use metrics to prioritize follow up contact.
- (08:59) – What Vyral looks like today.
- (10:02) – Database Marketing Fundamentals
- (10:29) – The importance of telling your story in an interesting, relatable way.
- (10:48) – The 10X rule.
- (11:28) – Frank discusses low versus high quality content.
- (12:33) – Creating content so good that people are willing to pay for it.
- (17:00) – Expectations when using a long-term marketing strategy.
- (19:31) – One-time re-engagement emails.
- (21:29) – Connecting with sponsors and investors.
- (23:56) – Persuading and compelling prospects by engendering a ‘feeling’ of affinity.
- (25:01) – Using an interview strategy to create content.
- (26:33) – Frank discusses how his branding and positioning strategy has evolved over time.
- (28:12) – Relating Frank’s successful brand strategy to property management.
- (30:41) – Leveling Up
- (33:00) – Discussing churn rates.
- (33:14) – Frank’s opinion on the number one reason for churn.
- (38:09) – Advice for the one-time re-engagement emails.
- (38:09) – Frank writes an engagement email on the spot for a real property management firm.
- (40:43) – Two types of opt-outs.
- (40:59) – Addressing potential client objections.
- (41:19) – “Why should I pay for that?”
- (42:03) – Recycling and repurposing video for maximum effect.
- (44:20) – The functional discipline of managing your time to get things done.
- (41:19) – “Why should I pay for that?”
- (38:09) – Frank writes an engagement email on the spot for a real property management firm.
- (33:00) – Discussing churn rates.
- (45:31) – Who do you learn from?
- (47:57) – What is the best interview you’ve ever conducted?
- (49:32) – What one book has impacted you the most?
- (51:14) – If you could do it all over again, what advice would you have given yourself at the beginning of your career?
- (55:05) – Are entrepreneurs born or bred?
- Jay Abraham (15:50) – Mentor and resource recommended by Frank.
- The Strategy of Preeminence (25:52)
- Dan Kennedy (15:50) – Mentor and resource recommended by Frank.
- NeverBounce.com (19:20) – Real-time email verification and advanced email list cleaning & scrubbing service recommended by Frank.
- Loom (41:32) – Screen recording software for email recommended by Frank.
- BomBbomb (41:50) – Video recording software for email.
- Gary Keller with Keller Williams (46:28) – Influential learning resource recommended by Frank.
- The Million Dollar Real Estate Agent: It’s Not About the Money…It’s About Being the Best You Can Be! (46:33)
- The ONE Thing: The Surprisingly Simple Truth Behind Extraordinary Results.
- Verne Harnish; Mastering the Rockefeller Habits: What You Must Do to Increase the Value of Your Growing Firm. (46:47) – Influential learning resource recommended by Frank.
Where to learn more:
If you want to get in touch with Frank, or find out more about Vyral Marketing and download the marketing plan discussed in today’s podcast, head on over to GetVyral.com.
Jordan: 0:00:00.0 Welcome closers. Today we have another episode of The Profitable Property Management Podcast coming at you. This is season two on sales. I’m your host Jordan Muela, and every week I interview world-class property management entrepreneurs and industry experts who share actionable insights on how to help you grow your property management empire.
Whether you manage 100, 1000 units, doesn’t matter. This broadcast is designed to help you see the big picture and give you the tools and tactics that you need to get to the next level.
Today, I am interviewing Frank Klesitz, the CEO of Vyral Marketing. This is a company focused on helping professionals and small business owners increase referrals and sales using their existing – key word ‘existing’, customer database.
Frank and his team know that your customer list is losing roughly 10% of its value every month if you neglect it. Just natural decay. Natural atrophy if you do nothing. Their video marketing strategy can turn those numbers around and help you get more juice out of what you already have instead of throwing marketing dollars at new leads.
Today we’re going to be talking all about database marketing, which is really content marketing pointed at a specific list of the contacts that you already have.
0:01:15.4 Welcome to the show Frank.
Frank: 0:01:17.3 Hey thanks man. Thanks Jordan.
Jordan: 0:01:19.5 Pleasure to have you on, give me the 411 man. Just back up. How did you end up starting Vyral marketing? What led you into that?
Frank: 0:01:29.2 In college I really liked the idea of being an entrepreneur, doing my own thing. And I was recruited to be a real estate agent, so I decided to pursue that and see what was available there.
And there was a training – this is back in 2007, when – this is before Zillow and all these online lead generation services trying to sell you leads online. A gazillion shiny objects.
0:01:53.7 Basically, we taught something very simple. You pick an area, you pick a market, you reach out to those people, you introduce yourself, you say, “I’m here to help solve a problem and you have it. You have some plan to stay in touch with them to position yourself as the expert and maintain top of mind awareness.”
0:02:09.4 And then one: You hope they call you. Or two: You prioritize follow up to see if you can, you know, call them. Right?
0:02:17.3 So I was like, that made sense. I was going to pick a target neighbourhood, I go to knock on doors, make calls, you know, go to charity events in the area, maybe hold open houses.
0:02:27.4 I understood prospecting. It’s not the funnest thing. You got to go meet strangers somehow. Right? And when you’re starting off – but then I was like, what am I going to send these people to stay in touch?
Now remember, I’m like maybe 22 years old at this time and I want to go into a pretty established neighbourhood to earn some money.
And basically what they said was a bunch of like junk mail or junk post cards or these, you know, these canned newsletters that – some set it and forget it solution, where you send out this like watered-down, you know, crappy content out to these people.
0:03:01.3 And I’m like, c’mon like this is junk. Like this is what people send? You know? 0:03:07.4 Like the idea that you just take something and slap your photo on it and then it counts.
I’m like, this is not going to get me a listing. Especially in the market I wanted to go into. Like, I’m from Omaha, Nebraska, and if you think about Omaha, Nebraska, I wanted to go in an area where there’s lots of Warren Buffet money. A lot of very affluent – in that area.
0:03:22.8 So I had an idea, and the idea was pretty simple. 0:03:26.1 Do you remember the flip camera, Jordan? Back in the day?
Jordan: I sure do. I do.
Frank: 0:03:31.0 Yeah, they don’t make them anymore, because the mobile phones put them out of business.
But I got a flip cam and I was like, hey I could put myself on camera. I could answer some commonly asked questions about how to improve your home. Buying and selling tips. Maybe interview a mortgage person. Interview people in the community. I could start publishing, basically, an area newsletter. More or less. You know.
0:03:51.8 And just take those videos, put them online. I could email them out, I could put them on social media.
And all I’d have to do is just go talk to people, knock on their doors, call them up. Just say, “Hey! I’m a local real estate agent but I publish this area newsletter. It’s going to have all these tips, insights and interviews. All this cool stuff. I’d love to see if you’d be interested in subscribing. What’s your best email address?”
“Oh sure, this is my email address.”
“Great! If you ever need help selling your home let me know, but I look forward to sending you my newsletter.” And move on.
And so my goal was to go out and build this big subscriber base and to get all these people subscribed to my stuff.
0:04:26.6 And then use the leverage of media, use the leverage of content to get people to know who I was and to spend time with me.
0:04:34.2 And then hopefully two things would happen. Like I said before. They would call me or I could – what’s actually kind of cool, is you can track who’s actually watching and engaging your stuff. And I could prioritize my phone call. Follow up with the people who knew who I was.
0:04:47.4 And that idea – I basically started implementing that for myself. And then a very long story short, I realized, you know, this is a problem a lot of people have. You know?
Like, “How do I get business? How do I position myself as the expert? How do I prospect where I’m not a pest, but I’m a guest.”
0:05:03.6 And really, the answer was leading with content. Leading with a newsletter, leading with a show, leading with a podcast. Yeah value, right?
0:05:09.7 Like leading with some kind of information based offer where I publish stuff that’s interesting specifically for you that answers questions and solves problems.
Get them as a subscriber, they spend time with you, they get to know what you stand for, your message. You know, they get to know you basically. You know?
And like I said, you can call them, they know who you are. You know, invite them to an invent or talk to them. Or they’ll call you. 0:05:31.6 And that was my strategy.
So what I realized, I was like, wait a minute. Before I go out and start building this database, like knocking on doors and calling, hold on. I have a lot of people I knew on Facebook at the time. I have a lot of people I have with LinkedIn connections. I have a lot of people that I know – I was actually a personal fitness trainer before that. I have a lot of personal training clients.
I should export all those emails I’d out of my Gmail, out of my Outlook, out of my LinkedIn. You know, let me get all the emails, all the contact information of everyone who I’ve ever met in my entire life. 0:06:05.2 And let me just send them all an email inviting them to subscribe.
0:06:09.2 And you know, go like this, “Hey friends, family, clients, it’s Frank Klesitz, graduated college, reason I’m writing you is I’m going into real estate. I’m publishing this newsletter, I’d love for you to get it. If you don’t want it you can click here to opt out. I don’t want to spam you. But if you ever have any need about buying or selling a home, or you ever have a need about this, I’m here. Love to stay in touch. Frank.” 0:06:29.2 Right? Simple.
I was like, man if I can – there’s like four steps to this plan. This is what we do at Vyral Marketing. And I realize like, people need help executing this. I was like, man, if I could just reconnect with my existing list and round up all those people, all my customers, all my prospects, all my unconverted leads. All my centers of influence.
If I could round those all up, reduplicate them and get them this nice, little, helpful reconnect message, that’s awesome.
If I could have a targeted prospecting strategy where it’s like, “Look let’s get a list of our ideal client and let’s start reaching out to them. Let’s start going directly for the game we want. You know, the, you know – what exactly are we hunting here, let’s figure out what that is and let’s go after it.”
0:07:13.6 But instead of just you know, showing up as a pest saying, “Do you want to give me money?” That’s a little forward right? You show up saying, “Hey I wanted to offer you a subscription to my newsletter, my podcast, my blog, or whatever.”
0:07:28.0 Then I would start publishing educational content so people get to know me. I would recommend maybe two educational videos a month is a great place to start. Two quick Q&A videos.
0:07:36.2 And the fourth step is hopefully they call you, or I can actually track who is watching this content and I can prioritize follow up with a phone call like, “Hey it’s Frank, I see you subscribed, just want to call people that are on my list and see if you have any questions I can answer for you now on the phone or maybe in the show.”
0:07:54.5 I was like, man that’s a great system, I like that plan. I can do that. 0:07:57.3
Jordan: Four steps.
Frank: 0:08:00.3 Yeah, four steps. So let’s go through the four steps again. 0:08:01.8 Reconnect with your existing, neglected database.
0:08:06.2 Have a plan to build your database of your target market, but invite them with a newsletter subscription as opposed to saying, “Do you want to hire me?” So you’re less of a pest and you become a guest.
0:08:17.8 Number three is start publishing two educational Q&A type videos a month. 0:08:23.9 And they can be articles, they can be podcasts, I don’t really care what media you use, but start publishing two pieces of content a month. People – that solve people’s problems.
0:08:31.8 And then number four is, you know, hey if I could track who’s watching this stuff, and I could track what they’re doing online, why not prioritize follow up just to kind of you know, go swim up to my ship, you know, as opposed to waiting for them to come in with like a passive 0:08:44.9 [Inaudible] call.
0:08:46.2 And that plan I wrote, it’s the marketing plan on the Ferber ((?)) website, and I was like, “Hey I think this plan makes a lot of sense.” And apparently a lot of people thought that too.
Jordan: 0:08:56.8 It worked for other people.
Frank: 0:08:59.2 Exactly. So, at Vyral Marketing, we have about 65 employees now, we interview hundreds of people every single month to create these educational videos.
We edit them, optimize them, publish them out. And we basically take a professional that doesn’t really have essentially a newsletter. 0:09:13.9 And which can be a video blog or a podcast, but some type of publication, let’s say. Right? And we help create that for them.
0:09:21.7 And instead of just, you know, someone else writing your content, or someone else crafting the stuff, no man, you’ve got to get on video.
And we’re going to coach you to create that content so it’s from you. Because the whole point of this is not this amazing content we share. Because, honestly, it’s all available online.
Like you’re really not saying much that people can’t get someplace else. Let’s just be real. The reality is you’re saying it, and they’re spending time with you and they’re getting to know, like and trust you.
That’s the whole goal. 0:09:48.9 How can we get people, at scale, to spend time with you, to know, like and trust you online. So that’s the first step of the sales process. So they move 0:09:56.2 [Inaudible]. And that’s the idea. And that’s how Vyral Marketing was born. 0:10:00.6 And I started a company to do that for people.
Jordan: 0:10:02.5 Alright guys, let’s break this down. Let’s back up. The question I asked Frank was, “How did you get started with Vyral Marketing?” For those of you listening at home, let’s think about the fact that Frank could’ve skipped about five minutes of that.
He could’ve just given me the bullet points as quickly as possible to kind of gloss over and get to the point about what Vyral Marketing does.
0:10:29.6 But there was a story, and this clearly is not the first time that he has given that story – an interesting story, arc that’s practical, relatable, and kind of leads into the me section of what the company actually does.
0:10:39.6 It’s something we should all be thinking about. Is there a story behind what you do? Is there relatable, interesting story.
0:10:48.2 Frank, I appreciate you kind of mapping it out that way. One of the things that we talk about on the show is the 10X rule. The concept of delivering ten times the value that you expect to receive before you ask for the sale.
0:11:03.0 Talk to me about the psychology of inverting that rule. Where people want to put out the low value add, crappy content on an automated basis and they come to you that your system is basically going to be an inexpensive way to get you to somehow spam their list.
0:11:22.0 Walk me through that. Because I know I don’t need to even ask. I know you’ve interacted with that. Walk me through that psychology. Where that comes from.
Frank: 0:11:28.9 No that’s great man. You know, you have a generation, I’d say it’s older than mine. I’m 32. That, you know, grew up into business before the explosion of media. And social media and all this other stuff.
And yeah, you can get away with sending someone a you know, some low-level, fluff content like a recipe card. Right? Or something someone else made that you throw your photo on it and you get business from it. And it works. And to some extent, it still does. 0:12:05.0 I’m not going to say that it’s not.
But here’s the deal, as – attention’s getting really expensive. I mean, you know, you gotta – there’s so many people competing for someone’s attention – you know, you send someone an email, you make a Facebook post, that just kind of like slightly interrupts or annoys someone – I mean, you’re one click away from being banned from all their streams. Like, you’ll never show up ever again on their computer screen. Like one click.
0:12:33.3 So I think the idea is that you have to create content so good that people will be willing to pay for it. And the people that apply that standard of their content, like you’re doing with your podcast, or like I do with my show, or anything that we teach our client about, is you would try to create something so good that someone would actually be willing to pay for it, because in return, they pay for it with their attention and spending time with you. 0:12:54.6
Does that make sense? They pay for it with their attention. That’s what advertising is. You’re buying attention.
Jordan: 0:13:03.9 The other day I heard Gary V with the quote describing himself as an attention arbitrage entrepreneur.
Frank: 0:13:15.0 Yeah, so the idea was, is – you know, when I sold my fitness training – I was running sales from the very beginning when I was younger, I was like man, the offer – this is what was very interesting to me – the offer, like what you actually do, was not really that big of a deal.
Like, a lot of people hired me for fitness training and even still today, a lot of people hire Vyral Marketing and they don’t even understand really what we do.
0:13:44.9 They just spent so much time with me that they’re like, “I want to work with this person. I like how they think. I like who they are. I like what they’re about. Like, I like this guy. And I don’t really quite understand exactly what they do, or how it works, but I’m going to hire this person.”
0:14:01.7 And when you switch, that’s your prospect. You get the profit premium. People will pay a premium for a feeling. Right?
Like, they’re going to pay a premium to work for you, because they just like working with you. They feel safer, they feel protected.
They feel like they know they can get some consulting advice. Like that’s where the profit margin is. If you’re competing just on your core deliverable, someone’s going to come along and squeeze that profit margin out. Does that make sense?
0:14:28.0 But when you’re – when people hire you because they’ve spent time with you and they know they can trust you, you get that profit premium.
0:14:34.9 So what I’m getting at is like, man, what if I can get – the number one metric I would say, that how are you – if you’re going to go down this publishing content route and you’re going to start a newsletter, you’re going to start making videos, what’s the number one metric that leads to business? Is it clicks? Is it views? I’ll tell you what it is. It’s minutes consumed. 0:14:55.3 Simple as that. Minutes consumed.
I’m telling you man, someone that listens to your podcast, every one all the way through, right? If you had one person do that, that’s an amazing person that has a high affinity of you.
0:15:07.8 You’d rather have that one person listen to everything than 1000 people that listen to the first 30 seconds and they’re done.
0:15:14.8 But your views – the views are a lot higher, the listens are a lot higher on the ladder, right? But the real business results come from the former.
0:15:23.6 So I think to answer your question is, if you need the attention to spend time with you, you have to give them something so good they’re willing to pay for it. And they pay for it with their attention.
0:15:37.2 And what you learn is that the more time people spend with you, and this could be in person, or it could be through video, it could be through a podcast, it scales through writing. Certainly. 0:15:47.6 Right?
0:15:49.2 I mean there’s mentors in my life like Jay Abraham, Dan Kennedy, 0:15:50.1, I mean I read all these guys’ books and listened to thousands, probably hundreds upon thousands of hours.
It’s like I know them as personal mentors but I’ve never met them personally. Does that make sense? Isn’t that crazy? You know.
0:16:04.5 And that’s what I think people need to realize to position themselves better and they’ll get better quality clients from it. It’s just a jump.
Jordan: 0:16:09.9 Yeah, it’s kind of mind-blowing when somebody will walk up to me in an event or at trade shows and say, “Hey I listen to all your podcasts and I actually process like how many hours that means that they’ve actually heard my voice speaking.”
It has a just a completely different dynamic in terms of the interaction and it means that you’re no longer in a comparative category.
Meaning, when that person is thinking about working with you, they’re only thinking about working with you. They’re not wanting to shop, they’re not wanting to grind you. It’s just such a more pleasant experience.
But Frank, let’s be honest, this is a long game strategy. At least in my book it’s a long game strategy for a couple of reasons. Number one, you’re going to suck at the outset. Number two, it takes time for people to actually get to the point of having a purchasing need.
Even if they like you, they may not be ready to buy just because the natural ongoings of their business for months, years, whatever it may be.
0:17:00.6 What is the expectation that you set on when this is actually going to pay off?
Frank: 0:17:07.1 That is a great question. Alright. So, this is just something you need to do for the rest of your life and accept it and get over the – what are the stages of – shock. “Oh my gosh I need to do this.” Then you have denial. “No I don’t have to do this.” Then you get angry. “I have to do this.” You bargain. “How do I not have to.”
Jordan: Right, right, right.
Frank: 0:17:29.1 I would say, you know, if you want to position yourself as a professional, professionals speak. Professionals give seminars. Professionals write papers. Professionals do these things.
And chances are, you know, you’re in a service business. I mean, property manager is a service business.
They want to see you as a protector, as someone that can protect them. They want to see how you think, “You know what, I like this guy’s values, I like how they think. I can let them make decisions on my behalf and they’ll make the right one, because I consume their content. I know how they go about solving things.” 0:18:00.6 Right?
So yes, this is something you have to do forever. So I’ve committed to my show, you commit to staying in touch through database. Why would you ever stop?
0:18:07.1 So you have to make that long-term commitment. Now, when it comes to results, this is what’s very interesting.
Remember how I said earlier that the number one step, the very first step to starting a, let’s just call it a newsletter, but that could be applied through various media like a blog or a podcast, right? Is you want to reconnect with your existing database.
Now here’s the thing. 0:18:29.9 When I take a client, let’s say I am a CPA that says, “You know what, I really don’t like using Groupon, that’s not really getting me good customers.” Or, “I really don’t like all these customers that are coming in for these low, low – I’m competing on price.” Like, “Ok, let’s fix that.”
0:18:50.2 You know, let’s start this – “how to save money on taxes”. How to, you know, this whole newsletter on like, financial advice. You know, and better accounting and making better decisions in your business type of newsletter.
But let’s literally take all your LinkedIn connections, all your Facebook friends, let’s take everyone in your CRM list, let’s take everyone in your Outlook, let’s take everyone in your Gmail, let’s export everybody. Every single person.
And let’s de-duplicate them – what I might do is I might run them through like an email scrubbing service like NeverBounce.com 0:19:20.9, that will get rid of all the bad emails so that there’s a 97% guarantee deliverability rate on that list. 0:19:27.1 And this isn’t spamming. Ok. Let’s be very clear. 0:19:28.9 This …
Jordan: A one-time re-engagement email.
Frank: 0:19:31.6 This is a one-time re-engagement email. It’s technically called – they call it a permission pass. You can Google what permission pass means.
But you’re just writing a personal email arguably to people you know, like it’s a pretty wide definition of a – like all these people have some existing relation to you. You didn’t buy some cold spam list. Right?
0:19:49.0 And all you’re doing is you’re writing a subject line that says, “A quick reconnect”. You say, “Hey, if you’re getting this, we’re connected on social media, you’re a client, you’re a friend. We’ve done business together. I just want you to know that I’m really committed to helping people save money on their taxes and do this or the other thing. I’m starting this newsletter, I invite you to subscribe. You can opt out here.” So you just leave them all on it. You say opt out if you don’t want it. Right?
0:20:13.3 “But I’m mostly here to help you, so by the way, if you have these questions let me know, I can answer them.” You know, “Reply back to this email.” Or, “If you literally need help with this problem, call me, I will meet with you and help you. Frank.”
0:20:28.7 So yeah, this email goes out to a lot of people who respond back saying, “Yeah, I want to hire you and pay you.” And you’re like – and it spikes the interest right there. Does that make sense?
Jordan: 0:20:37.1 Absolutely.
Frank: 0:20:39.2 And, that gets immediate results. Now again, the other results might take time. You don’t know – people are going to watch your show it’s going to take reach.
But I think one of the biggest issues I want to touch on that’s really quick, Jordan, is the issue of getting results.
0:20:55.2 It’s that you’re probably spending some money to execute this. You’re spending – you have to hire somebody so it costs money – you know, there’s a cost to execute this. Right?
It’s like, how long does it take before I get a sale to recoup or make a profit on the marginal marketing cost of executing the strategy we’re talking about today. 0:21:15.5 That’s unknown. That’s the business risk you have to take. And therefore you get the profit and the reward.
However, to lower that business risk beyond the first reconnect email is – when you decide to start publishing, you become a publisher.
0:21:29.3 And how do publishers make money? Well they get sponsors, they get advertisers. You know, if you’re building a database of people, in your case, that have rental property, investors let’s say – that you’re doing property management for.
Let’s just say you do property management for investors or you do property management, obviously, for homeowners – how many people out there would love to get in front of homeowners? How many real estate agents will want to get in front of homeowners that may want to sell their rental property? How many people want to get in front of investors to give them mortgages?
Jordan: Hard money lenders.
Frank: 0:21:59.1 Yeah. Just think of all the people that want to get in front of your audience that you’re building. Because you’re literally running a publication. Go sell sponsorships. Whatever your cost is to execute this, go sell one, two, or three advertising spots.
Jordan: 0:22:15.4 So the point here is de-risking. The point is not some incremental revenue opp. If you need this, and even if you don’t need it, de-risk it so that you can fully embrace this opportunity. That makes a ton of sense to me.
Frank: 0:22:27.7 And you can sit along for the long term and say, “Ok, now that I’ve got this kind of zero based,” or “I’ve got a lot of the cost taken care of from sponsors, now I can really focus on creating great stuff and doing this for the long term.”
Jordan: 0:22:38.8 Guys, notice what he’s doing. So he has a strategy that he’s advocating but there are multiple ways to de-risk it.
You mentioned one earlier that I just want to come back to, and that was having a perspective that this is a business discipline.
Is this transactional for you? Did you just get your real estate license, maybe you’ll be doing it in six months, maybe you won’t? Or are you committed in the long term?
In my industry, Frank, these are folks that have been doing property management decade after decade, at recurring revenue. They’ve got 100, 1000 clients, whatever it may be. 0:23:08.9 They’re committed for the long haul.
And in that regard, they possess a lot of operational expertise that a lot of times they just don’t take the time to articulate publicly. It’s all in their head.
0:23:21.2 So for me, the ancillary benefit here, is the pressure. Put the spotlight on yourself, put the mic in your own hand and put the pressure on yourself to formulate and articulate yourself with the expertise that you already have, but is not currently accessible.
And is the reason you’re being commodified. It’s the reason that you’re complaining about price shoppers.
0:23:44.4 But the answer, the answer to solve that is not complaining. It’s to reposition yourself in the category and this kind of crucible – standing in this crucible, developing this skill set is a great way to get to that point.
Frank: 0:23:56.9 Oh I have to add on that. So, yeah. So, the profit is always in creating a feeling for somebody. So if you take fashion. You take – I don’t know, gosh. Take Rolex watch. Take a handbag, a woman’s handbag. I mean, they’re all the same thing, essentially.
Jordan: Plus or minus. Pretty close.
Frank: 0:24:21.5 Plus or minus. Yeah, but they’re pretty close utilitarian-wise. But what you’re buying is you’re buying that feeling. That affinity. Like, I want to feel that way. Right? I want to feel that way. You know? Like people will spend more for a feeling than anything else.
So, how can – if you’re competing with all these other property managers, and the deliverable is all the same, ok, well know you got to become – let’s use the word fashion, or fashionable.
0:24:49.7 You know, you need to be figured out – you need to position yourself in a way for how can – how can people feel and be perceived as being more protected by you. Of protecting their investment.
0:25:01.3 That’s how you compete, and this is what – this is how you can do that now. With what you were saying, it’s like just getting on video, or just start writing. You know that is a difficult jump for people that haven’t done that before. Right?
So, the easiest way to start publishing your own content, without – to get over that next step, is to get somebody to interview you.
0:25:24.7 This could be an employee that interviews you on the phone. And you just tell them the questions to ask you. So it’s a conversation like right now.
0:25:32.2 Like, like for example, we talked about 25 minutes or so, 20 minutes. If you were to go say, “Go shoot a 25 minute video”, I think the average person would completely lock up.
Frank: 0:25:41.2 But if it’s conversation, it makes it a lot easier.
Jordan: 0:25:44.8 Conversation about what you know. About what you’ve been doing year, after year, after year. You mentioned the feeling earlier. I’m thinking about Jay Abraham’s strategy of preeminence. 0:25:52.9 I’m thinking about some of the common emotions we can relate to.
Buying or selling a home, what are we talking about? We’re talking about your family, your domicile. The place where all a lifetime’s worth of memories are going to happen and for most people, their largest financial investment. 0:26:08.5 Those are emotions.
With property management, wealth creation through real estate. I want to retire on real estate. I want to de-risk my future.
0:26:15.4 Those are emotions that can be tapped into. And i couldn’t agree more. The process of actually tapping into that though, requires stepping away from the bullet points. Stepping away from the brochure of what you do that is common with so many other vendors.
0:26:33.8 As it pertains to what you do, Frank, what does that evolution look like over time? Are you in a crowded category? Are there a lot of folks doing database marketing? How is your own positioning and branding evolve over time?
Frank: 0:26:44.1 That’s very interesting you say that. So I’m just another social media expert.
Jordan: Rough, rough. My heart goes out to you brother.
Frank: 0:26:55.4 Yeah. So think about that. Think how many social media marketing experts there are.
Frank: 0:27:01.2 So I was like, ok, so how can I not be positioned as that? Right? And let’s use that same idea of, “I’m just another property management company.” Right? How could I not do that? Well?
Here’s what I did. I came up with a specific problem that needed to be solved. I said, “Ok, people need a way to stay in touch with their database. There’s a problem there, there’s a pain.”
Ok, so I’m going to use social media to solve a pain, which is stay in touch with your database.
But, I need to have a specific, like, you know, documented approach, plan. A method of how I go about solving that pain. 0:27:43.5 And I wrote a little book about it. Ok.
And then what I did, is I marketed the book to solve people’s pains – to a target market. And then I happen to sell the implementation of that on the back end.
0:27:59.6 And the way people got to know me, like me and trust me, with the clientele all over the country – where I didn’t necessarily have to be, you know, on the road all the time, is by publishing content so people can spend time with me online as opposed to spending time in person.
0:28:12.7 So let’s relate this to a property manager and what we can do. 0:28:16.2 Well, what’s the you know, the – so I own rental property, I own single-family houses and like my biggest concern is my property management company folds up shop, doesn’t tell me and just leaves all these houses and the tenants don’t get serviced. 0:28:32.4 Like that’s like literally my biggest fear. You know?
0:28:37.1 Like I need a property management company that is safe, reliable and I also want someone that’s incredibly proactive. Like, there’s like a cancer happening in all the houses at all times, I’m thinking of. I’m thinking of like there’s a water dripping, you know, something’s happening.
0:28:51.0 I’m looking for an extremely proactive, preventative maintenance policy to protect the asset.
0:28:57.4 So, if you could somehow solve that problem, you’re going to track guys like me that are in it for the long-term. That have the money to invest in the repairs, because I’m looking 15 years out for as a retirement strategy. As a part of the clients, I would want if I was a property manager. Does that makes sense? Right?
Jordan: Yeah, absolutely.
Frank: 0:29:12.7 So basically, if you could write some type of documented plan of, “We are the most proactive property management company in the marketplace.” “Oh! I like that. Well what do you do? What’s the approach?”
Jordan: “What’s the proof?”
Frank: 0:29:26.5 Yeah, “What are you going to do?” You know, “We do this, we do that. Yeah, we charge a little more.” But I’m willing to pay a little more for that. You know, I want to catch the problem, like you know, how about two or three inspections a year. Make sure the lead-based paint is fine. Make sure we check the carbon monoxide detectors. Make sure that the dryer vent doesn’t build up in dryer lint for fire hazard. 0:29:45.1 Make sure, you know, I don’t know gosh, so many things. Right?
Jordan: 0:29:49.4 Any good offer is highly, highly specific. It’s not generic. It’s not, “We’re number one.”
Frank: 0:29:54.2 Yeah, I almost one a home inspector to be my property manager. With all due respect. Seriously. You know?
0:30:02.0 So, what I would say there – and then you go back, you start creating the content that advertises that there are all the things you want – like these are all the problems that come with properties and this is how we prevent them.
0:30:10.6 So your newsletter would be like, “Well, here’s another problem you’ve got to be looking out for. Here’s a tenant problem you got to be looking out for. Here’s this issue you got to look out for. Here’s this issue, here’s this issue.”
And that’s the whole blog is about those problems. 0:30:22.1 And then you come in with your solution. “I have our approach. Our property management plan to be the most proactive property management firm in the country.” You know, “Talk to us about it.”
0:30:35.9 And you ask for more money. 0:30:37.1 Or you have two tiers? You have your basic tier and you have your premium tier. I’d buy the premium tier. 0:30:40.5
Jordan: 0:30:41.9 You can slice it and dice it a lot of different ways. The principles stand. Frank, I want to pivot to talk a little bit about the dirty ‘C” word. And that is ‘churn’.
Churn is the boogie man in the closet, under the bed, for those of you with recurring revenue businesses, and I’m talking every single property management company running this business. It’s the thing that you cannot escape from.
0:31:03.3 If your churn is high, no matter what level of explosive growth, no matter what lead gen strategy, content marketing, database marketing, doesn’t matter, you cannot escape it.
0:31:14.8 The thing that I like about this strategy, is that it has an impact on churn, which has a direct correlation to overall client lifetime value. 0:31:23.9 That’s another form of de-risking it for me.
For those of you listening, you know that you have an existing list of clients. You know that these people that you want to buy more. You want them to buy more properties – there’s a positioning element, there’s a story around wealth creation through real estate. That’s the journey that you get to lead on.
0:31:43.4 But reducing churn has such a profound impact on your business, and if you’re like many property management companies, where, because it’s recurring revenue, because you’re a small business, you could grow, but you could also not grow and you would still have a great operation.
0:31:58.5 Because of that element, where growth is oftentimes aspirational, it’s another reason I like this strategy.
Are you going to go steady and deeply master and figure out SEO, pay-per-click, Facebook marketing? Probably not.
0:32:12.7 At best, you’re going to use another vendor whose quality of goods you cannot necessarily audit in the same way that if a mechanic tells me I need a new transmission, I don’t – I can’t really argue with that because I cannot audit the good or service.
0:32:26.6 But what you can do, what you can relate to, is the frequency and the strength of relationship that you have with your own customers. This is an opportunity to pull a lever that is firmly in your hand.
0:32:40.9 How many properties do your current customers own? How long do they stick with you? And how much revenue do they pay you on an individual per client basis? Frank do you hear where I’m coming from?
Frank: 0:32:53.4 Dude yeah, 100%. I mean, so first off yeah, you’re going to always have a churn rate because people want to get out of the business, they need the money for something else.
Jordan: Sell a house, whatever.
Frank: 0:33:00.9 Yeah. You have to get very good like in your exit interviews. Of hopefully trying to get the truth of why that person left. Is it something you can control or is it something you can’t control? So it’s good to know, you know?
0:33:14.2 But what it comes down to – this is what I tell everyone all the time at Vyral for our churn rate and for everything. People leave because they don’t feel protected anymore. That’s it. I mean, that really is it.
0:33:29.0 They just feel like you’re not protecting their money, you’re not protecting their investment, you’re not protecting it. And it’s a feeling, unfortunately. It’s a feeling unfortunately. I say unfortunately to underline that.
0:33:43.9 Because if it was logic, if they can’t deliver a great service, I delivered on these deliverables. I deliver these – quality work does not mean quality service. You could do great work but still give a poor service. 0:33:59.8 Because service – work is like very logical. I did it, I executed, I got the result.
Frank: 0:34:06.8 Functional. But service is a feeling. So the question is, how do we make sure that the customer always knows that you’re always protecting them and being proactive and going that extra mile where they don’t have to worry. 0:34:23.7 Does that make sense?
Jordan: 0:34:23.9 The trusted advisor.
Frank: 0:34:26.7 Yeah, the trusted advisor. Protection. And the only way you can do that is by increasing your communication with them. You have to increase communication, which strengthens the relationship. More consistent communication, more quality communication.
The challenge is you probably wouldn’t love to do that one to one to one to one. But you’re going to have to do it at scale, and the only way to do it at scale is by using media.
0:34:48.6 You’re going to have to write, you’re going to have to create a video, you’re going to have to get that as media to them.
0:34:51.7 Now here’s the deal. Some people want direct mail. Some people want to see it on Facebook. Some people want an email. So if you create a video, yeah, transcribe it, make a newsletter. Mail it out. 0:35:01.6 Email it out. Put it on Facebook. Whatever.
You know, use the media, the distribution method that people are the most receptive to. But constant communication of how you’re looking out to protect their best interests.
Jordan: 0:35:17.0 Right, because in the absence of communication, nobody ever thinks good things when they’re not hearing from you. Right?
Frank: 0:35:24.5 I’m constantly worried. I mean, I got a great property manager, he’s a friend of mine, but I’m telling you man, I would say probably two or three times a week, I kind of have a mini-panic attack.
0:35:31.1 Seriously. I’m worried about, “Did all the rent come in this month? I wasn’t updated, I don’t know.”
You know, “Is there something wrong with my properties? Is there a water leak?” “Oh my gosh, did we double check the fire extinguishers? Is something going to burn down?” You know, there’s just so much. Does that make sense?
0:35:50.6 I’m literally having mini-panic attacks. And you should think that all of your customers are having panic attacks every month and you need to be there to reassure them.
0:36:00.5 And if you’re only talking to them – I mean, I would expect at a minimum, a weekly update from my property manager. 0:36:08.9 That’s probably absurd to probably what some people do with nothing really ever. You know?
But I need lots of communication to protect those assets and know what’s going on.
Jordan: 0:36:18.2 Yeah, and some of that’s infrastructure, operations, technology, some of those touch points.
Frank: 0:36:22.9 Yeah, whatever it is man, I just want to know that there’s somebody accountable and they’re not just going to run off and just you know – I’ve had three property management companies just disappear on me dude.
Jordan: 0:36:31.3 Wow.
Frank: 0:36:34.1 Yeah. Just disappear. One guy used his trust account like he shouldn’t have and he was getting run after, you know. So, ok.
You know, the other one – the other ones didn’t manage the money right and fell by the wayside. 0:36:50.2 So it’s – property management, if you’re not running it, because the margins are generally thin — if you’re not running that really well, you can get into trouble. I think a lot of people do. But your audience doesn’t. 0:37:00.2
Jordan: 0:36:59.8 It’s the nature of mom and pop businesses. The bar to entry is lower and the bar to vanishing is lower. Wow. That – guys, stew on that. You’ve got a jaded investor that through no fault of his own has – is bringing some baggage to the relationship.
Frank: 0:37:18.9 Well, I could speak to it man. Like yeah, just you know. I wake up every single day thinking all my clients are going to quit so I have to make sure it doesn’t happen.
0:37:29.0 Like I literally wake up every morning thinking all my clients are going to quit and if I was a property management person, I would think, “Ok, all of my clients are having panic attacks.”
Jordan: Right. That’s the productive way to channel the paranoia, is to actually do something about it.
Frank: 0:37:46.6 It is! Yeah.
Jordan: 0:37:47.9 Yeah, I don’t disagree with you on that. 0:37:52.0 So you mentioned earlier, the re-engagement email, which is great.
I love that we’re starting something practical that is not spamming people. It’s a one-time email. In your mind, is it worth really trying to juice and optimize that re-engagement email for maximal impact? Because it is a one-time shot? And if so, any advice on that?
Frank: 0:38:09.2 Oh no. Oh, just super personal. Like, no images, super personal. Let’s just maybe – give me an example. I’ll write one right now. Give me the situation, let’s craft a message for this person.
Jordan: 0:38:22.7 Ok great. Chris Romanski, mainlander Property Management. Portland, Oregon. Been in the industry 30 years, just as of tomorrow decides he wants to get into database marketing.
Frank: 0:38:35.7 Ok, so is he – is his audience property – is it homeowners? Do they rent? Investors?
Jordan: 0:38:42.4 It’s a mix. 50/50. Half accidental landlords, and half intentional investors.
Frank: 0:38:49.5 Got it. Alright. So, round everybody up.
I’d say, “Dear friends, clients and colleagues, I’m writing to you because we’re connected on social media, we do business together or we’ve chatted at one point in the past. I want to let you know that I’m in property management.
I help homeowners rent their properties for profit and I’m also – I also help people that have some money to invest in much better returns in rental property than possibly going into the risky market.
The reason I’m writing you, is I started a newsletter that is for people looking to invest in real estate as well as anyone who is thinking about renting out their home.
As I’m sure you are aware, there’s probably lots of pitfalls and problems and risks and look, I’ve been doing this for x number of years and I’ve seen it all. And I can protect you and make sure that stuff doesn’t happen.
So I really want to get this information out. I want to let you know I’m starting this newsletter. I would like to send it to you because I think you would find it of benefit. Or people you know would find it of benefit.
As you know, I certainly don’t want to spam you. Just click here to opt out, no hard feelings at all, you won’t get anymore communication from me. 0:39:47.5 But look forward to my very first video which is going to be on the topic of, you know, should I rent my house? You’ll get that shortly.
However, if you are thinking of selling your home, or renting it or you need to move, call me, I can help guide you so you don’t make any big financial mistakes which I see.
And also, if you’re looking to invest in property, maybe call me or message. I have some properties that you won’t find on the MLS. I have access to those that can get you better deals than going after the full market. So I’m here to help.
This will be the only email you get from me unless you unsubscribe. If you don’t subscribe this will be the only email you get from me. Look forward to staying in touch. So and so.”
Jordan: 0:40:31.1 Love it. Sounds like you’ve done that before, Frank.
Frank: 0:40:35.7 Oh yeah. So do you see how personal that is? Do you see I give people an offer at the very bottom to work with you. I address both markets.
0:40:43.4 And there’s two ways you could do the opt out. The way that I do it, I just say if you don’t want this, opt out, and I just leave them all in.
0:40:48.9 You could go a little tighter with that where it’s like if you actually want this, click here to go to a form to put your email address in. It’s up to you. It’s up to you.
Jordan: 0:40:59.1 You know, here’s some kind of conflicting emotions I have. At least, taking on the role of consumer – that I have about what you do Frank. It’s like so deceptively simple. Oh, you just send them out a video to my – just emailing out a video. Easy. What’s the challenge. Why would I pay somebody money to help me do that?
Frank: 0:41:19.5 Oh, hang on, you don’t need to. Let me give you a couple options. Let me give you a couple resources.
So, I’l get into like why you may want to hire someone to help you, but if you just want to make a quick video, check out Loom. L-O-O-M. 0:41:32.9
It’s this cool little add-in that makes – you can add a video right into an email and send it out. 0:41:40.4 And if you have a small list, you can probably just email it right through Gmail and be done with it. Not a big deal. 0:41:44.5 Right? It’s free.
Jordan: 0:41:50.2 BomBbomb, same thing.
Frank: 0:41:51.8 Yeah, BomBbomb, same thing. You know, there’s a whole bunch of like video email services.
But, if you want to take it a step further, let me kind of go through what you need to do. So, you have to record a video.
0:42:03.4 You should probably have someone interview, so that’s a professional service to make that easy. Probably should go through some editing. Before it’s just raw sent out. Like make it look nice. Edit it up.
0:42:12.8 Then it should be uploaded to your YouTube channel. That’s – add some key words in there. Some people are searching for you online, hopefully your stuff shows up with a good YouTube description. 0:42:21.6 Make sense?
Then, that video needs to get embedded on your website. I recommend it goes on your blog, on your website. With an article. Someone should actually watch the video and write like an intelligent article summarizing what you say for search engine optimization as well. For people who want to read it as opposed to having to watch it. 0:42:38.0 That goes in your blog.
Then, the video needs to be uploaded to some other hosting sites. So it gets syndicated as a podcast. You can actually download videos as a podcast. And it’d be nice if someone could actually access it on iTunes.
Jordan: Like it.
Frank: Right? 0:42:53.2 It’s actually pretty cool.
Jordan: Recycling the content.
Frank: 0:42:55.6 Perfect, yes. This is what we’re doing now. Now that video probably should go up on Facebook. It needs to be re-downloaded, uploaded to Facebook.
Write the title, write the description, choose the start frame. 0:43:03.2 Let’s actually get the video on Facebook.
And maybe, you know, put a little money into it. Advertise it. You know, get yourself out to some homeowners. Your database, your website traffic. 0:43:12.7 You know, put a little money into it so people see it on Facebook. Ok.
Then let’s take it a step further. Obviously we need to write the email. So you need to round up your database where you export all your email addresses.
Bring in your email marketing program again because you have new ones. Right? Let’s write an email. Let’s write a headline. Let’s write some copy. Let’s put some call to actions. Like it takes some time to write an email. Spelling and grammar mistakes. Test it. Make sure it’s formatted for browsers. 0:43:33.7 Send it out. Right.
Then you know what you can do, is maybe email some of your strategic referral partners and say, “Hey can you post this video on your Facebook?” You know, to see if they can do it. Seriously, you really could.
0:43:47.2 That way it gets more reach. And then if you really, really, really, wanted to, why don’t you take that video, take a screen shot of it and through it on a post card. Send out a post card to your list of your firm. So they also a direct mail piece with it, with your video. Do you follow me?
Jordan: I’m tracking man.
Frank: 0:44:03.7 And then finally, all this – here’s the deal, you’re like the brain surgeon that comes in. You walk in, you record your video in five minutes and you’re out. And the rest of your staff handles all of that beautifully. And that’s my pitch for Vyral Marketing right there. That’s what we do.
Jordan: 0:44:20.3 Well, I tapped out maybe a third of the way through that list of all the things that I could do. 0:44:25.8 That we both know I’m not going to do.
And taking the opposite position now, of realism. From the other side of that objection, is the actual functional discipline to do it. Where’s your time well spent?
All of us should have a clear matrix of our highest point of contribution and the effort should be expended to stay in that quadrant, in that box as much as possible.
I enjoy the podcast. I’ve been doing it for awhile, gotten great results from it. 0:44:52.0 But I don’t manage the podcast. I don’t schedule the guests. I don’t send out the emails. I get help with that. And if that didn’t exist, I simply wouldn’t be doing it.
So it’s about having some realism about how much infrastructure and momentum you need to do the things that are most important. That’s my pitch for what you do, Frank. I
t’s that simple, but at the end of the day, it just comes down to being realistic about where you spend your time.
So I just want to kind of end here with some rapid-fire questions. 0:45:24.1 We do this with every single guest that we interview. And I just want some guttural answers from you Frank.
0:45:31.6 The first question in our rapid-fire section is, who do you learn from?
Frank: 0:45:37.4 Oh my god. I learn across a lot of disciplines and I try to find patterns. I really, I really learn journalism. I love studying journalism to get the story.
I love studying religion to understand how to really motivate people to change. 0:46:00.0 I’m just extremely observant of what motivates humans to take action and I try to model that.
As far as a few of my mentors to probably give you some specific mentors, I would tell you Dan Kennedy has been huge. Jay Abraham has been huge.
Gary Keller with Keller Williams, I’ve got to give a shout out to. He taught me how to scale a professional service business. 0:46:28.0 Yeah. He wrote a book called, The Million Dollar Real Estate Agent. 0:46:33.4 [Inaudible – Cross talk].
It could literally be called The Million Dollar Professional Services Provider. But it literally talks about how to scale a professional firm. Highly recommended. Those are some names.
0:46:47.6 And Verne Harnish taught me a lot about running a company with his Rockefeller Habits book. So those are really big people I learn from.
Jordan: Let’s just hone in on that. Back it up. 0:46:57.6 the first thing you said was studying from a multitude of disciplines. Which involves the cross-application of knowledge. I love that.
I just got to put out this quote from Charlie Munger where he says,
“The first rule is that you can’t really know anything if you just remember isolated facts and try to bang them back. If the facts don’t hang together on a lattice work of theory, you don’t have them in a usable form. You have to have models in your head. You’ve got to array your experience both vicarious and direct on this lattice work of models. You may have noticed students who just try to remember and pound back what is remembered. Well, they fail in school and in life. You gotta hang on to the experience of lattice work of models in your head.”
0:47:45.3 That’s just me kind of harping on my pet point of exactly what you said. It’s great to study within your vertical, within your niche, but you’ve got to go broader than that if you really want to scale.
0:47:57.2 Next question, Frank, what is the best interview you’ve ever conducted?
Frank: 0:48:02.7 The best interview I ever conducted? I would have to say, I flew to the Philippines – we have a call centre in the Philippines that helps with getting subscribers and reaching out to people.
And I wanted to go out there and see first-hand about how people live in the Philippines. I’d never been there, never been to Asia.
0:48:28.9 Flew out there, flew to Manila. Went two hours south and we had like a company event. And then I asked around and said, “Hey I want to take some of the Filipino people here that work. I want to interview them.”
0:48:40.2 So I pulled them aside, brought a camera for 30 minutes and I asked them how they live, I asked them how much they earn, I asked them about their life. I asked them about their backgrounds.
And understanding the world from their perspective as an American over here and conducting those interviews at night, at like the end of a retreat. And telling them I’m going to ask them some incredibly uncomfortable questions. The interviews wouldn’t be shared with any of their peers. 0:49:04.9 I’d only share those interviews with either the Americans that hire them privately.
I really got to see a side of the world that I’d never saw before, and that opened my eyes. That’s my answer.
Jordan: 0:49:19.4 Wow. Yeah.
Frank: 0:49:20.3 See you think it’d be a business interview. It was interviewing the virtual assistants in the Philippines.
Jordan: 0:49:26.8 Love it. Yeah. That’s great man. They say travel is fatal to prejudice. Awesome answer.
Next question. 0:49:32.9 What one book has impacted you the most? If you’re a leader, you’re a reader. I know you’ve read a lot of books, but could you pick one? Could you point to one?
Frank: 0:49:41.4 You know, I could man. And I got to – all the books that I’ve read, I’ve got to give them a shout out. It would be that Million Dollar Real Estate Agent book from Gary Keller.
Jordan: 0:49:48.8 Wow. Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow.
Frank: 0:49:51.8 that was the first one man. Because you have to remember, I was recruited to be in real estate.
And, you know, that was kind of the first business book I read that was kind of, very like a handbook versus a business book.
And it’s so funny man, like I’ll go back and flip through that and I’ll see a sentence that I read like ten years ago. 0:50:10.5 I’m like, man that sentence has so much meaning.
0:50:13.7 Like there was a sentence, I was just going through it the other day and he said something in there, he’s like “You know, a great hire not only does the work, but they also take a lot of the mental work and thinking off your plate too.” Like yeah, I can see that now.
0:50:29.4 Whereas when you’re starting off, you’re like, ok. You know, you see this face value. So I got to tell you, that book he wrote man, teaches you how to scale a professional service and I have not read any other book that is anywhere as good, that teaches you how to scale a professional service. I’ve read scaling businesses, but a professional service that’s the best one. Hands down.
Frank: 0:50:51.7 This replaced, listing with client. And there you go.
Jordan: 0:50:57.3 Guys. If you haven’t read it, check it out. This is the book that Gary credits a lot of his success too and a latter book called, The One Thing.
He referenced doubling down on writing this book as kind of a key strategic focus that really ended up leading to a lot of growth in the company overall. Check it out. I’ll link it in the show notes.
0:51:14.6 Next question, if you could do it all over again, what advice would you have given yourself at the beginning of your career?
Frank: 0:51:22.5 When you start a business, you start on a very low hierarchy of needs where you need to make money. Where it’s really driven out of fear.
So you’re constantly prospecting. You’re always thinking of the opportunity cost of your time. It’s like, man, “I need to be on the phone. I need to be calling. I need to be doing sales presentations. I need to be prospecting. I need to be doing lead followup.”
0:51:52.6 And you don’t really like doing it at the beginning, but you almost like psyche yourself up. You’re almost like changing the neurological structure in your body.
It’s like, “that’s just something that I do, because if I don’t do this, the money doesn’t come in. I’m the rainmaker, I am the rainmaker.” Like if I was – like I’d be in a meeting with somebody and I’d get resentful in the meeting because I gotta be on the phone. Does that make sense?
Like I have to go – I have to go produce. And I wish someone helped me tame that producer mindset sooner and that rainmaker mindset sooner so I could sit back and calm down. 0:52:31.5 And train people to do things as opposed to me doing it.
So I wasted probably a two to three years Vyral Marketing, because I was an incredibly ineffective leader and an ineffective trainer of others.
0:52:48.3 Because I got very resentful of having to train people and pay them because it took away from my time where I had to go make money bringing the business.
0:52:59.0 And I think that’s a lot of trap a lot of people run into. And I just had to get over it and literally go through therapy with myself.
0:53:07.0 Of like, what’s my vision? I really have to slow down. I have to do my weekly one-on-one meetings. I have to do my morning huddles. I have to do my training classes every single week. And yes, I am going to give up ‘now money’ for that and I hope to god I have money in reserves in the bank because I won’t be bringing in business. But I have to get comfortable training people.
0:53:28.1 And if you can get through that lull, that risk period, that stress point in scaling a business, where you move from producer to leader and getting things done through others and training. That’s the shift, and I find a lot of people making a difficulty getting through that.
0:53:43.9 Because you’re operating from that fear of making those sales. So I think we could all relate to that, but that was me.
I wish somebody was there to say, “Frank, you need to calm down. Train your people and it’s going to happen. Set aside the time and get over this resentful feeling of you having to train people that you’re also paying.
0:54:10.4 Like, I had this erroneous belief that like if I pay you, you should just be able to do it. That’s not correct is it.
Jordan: 0:54:20.0 No, that’s really personal.
Frank: 0:54:23.5 I mean it’s true. If you want to know the real answer, if I could back and understand what it takes to transition to a rainmaker/producer to become a leader and trainer and others, that was a very difficult change inside of me.
Jordan: 0:54:36.0 Love it. So you’re talking about getting passed the glass ceiling. I think it was Paul Graham, founder of White Combinator that said something to the effect of that anybody can muscle through to a certain level of a business. Raw will will take you there, but it’s a very hard glass ceiling if that’s the only muscle that you’ve conditioned up to that point. 0:54:56.0 Appreciate the candidness there.
0:54:57.7 Last question of the day. I ask this to every single person I interview. Everybody’s got a slightly different perspective. I’m interested to hear yours. 0:55:05.6 Frank, are entrepreneurs born or bred?
Frank: 0:55:10.1 Oh man. I was bred. So, my mother was a fifth grade – my mom – my dad passed when I was little. My dad was an insurance agent. My dad was a professional bass player and an insurance agent.
I grew up in Omaha, Nebraska in a very middle class family and my mom was fifth grade band teacher for 30 years.
0:55:35.8 There is not an ounce of entrepreneurial blood anywhere in my family. I mean, my mom comes from a family of farmers. She has eleven brothers and sisters from Iowa farm. Right?
0:55:47.1 But my parents pushed me kind of into Boy Scouts and I became an Eagle Scout. And then they pushed me to kind of like, just do well and do better at band. And I played clarinet and I play guitar and they always pushed me to say, Frank – it wasn’t like you needed to achieve, like fill some need.
Like I’m not trying to prove anything to anyone, which is important, but it was just like, “Frank you could do better. You could do better. You could do better.”
And my parents really guided me and gave me a safe place to like try out being a leader of others. I think Boy Scouts really helped me out with that.
And this business, this entrepreneurship – I like to think of myself more as an artist than an entrepreneur. I’m more of an artist that wants to be able to be free and do my art as a creative, so I needed to start a business or else I would just go crazy. You know what I mean?
0:56:34.6 So, I would say is that this business is a very natural extension of the three values that were somehow really ingrained into me when I was young and growing up.
0:56:46.7 And those are: An incredible need for autonomy. A very deep need to be influential, which comes from leadership. I really love influence. And also creativity.
And you’re seeing Vyral Marketing’s just a natural extension of autonomy, creativity and my need for influence, which is leadership.
0:57:08.4 So, I was made and my parents fostered those things to where I ended up. There’s no way I was born that way because I don’t come from that. There’s no DNA in my family being born. So I think by that definition, the answer is it has to be it’s made.
Jordan: 0:57:28.2 Fair enough. You make a compelling argument. I hear a little bit of both sides coming through there.
It’s not necessarily – I mean to me, the idea that it’s born doesn’t mean that you come from a long line of entrepreneurs. It just means that there’s something kind of wired inside of you from when you came out the womb. Just bends you towards those things. 0:57:48.7
Frank: 0:57:48.4 It’s who I am, man. I mean, I’ve been very fortunate. I went to a lot of Tony Robbins events. I went to his like Date with Destiny at UPW and I really try to figure out like, “Why am I like this?”
0:57:56.6 Like why am I like this way? Why do I have this sickness? Of like wanting to go work and build this thing and what am I going to do with this? You know what I mean?
0:58:04.9 And it really came back to, I really had to go back and give credit to my parents. So, that’s it. I just have a high need – I want to lead others, I want to be autonomous, I want to be creative and I can’t find those outlets in any other way than having my own marketing firm.
Jordan: 0:58:23.1 Alright, we’ll leave it at that. I’m tracking with where you’re coming from. I’m glad we had you on the show and for those of you listening, I hope that you took something away from this that you can apply to your business.
Because I certainly experienced that. It was a reminder to me of keeping – fighting the good fight. Maintaining the discipline. Playing the long game. Betting on value. Betting on aligning with the customer, creating value.
Thanks for coming on the show. 0:58:53.6 Frank, if folks want to find out more about what you’re up to, where can they go?
Frank: 0:58:58.3 Well, you could go download that marketing plan we talked about today. It’s right on the homepage of GetVyral.com. G-E-T-V-Y-R-A-L dot C-O-M.
Jordan: Love it. Alright. Frank we’ll keep eyes on your work there with Vyral. Thanks for again for coming on. Total blast.
Frank: Thanks Jordan. Bye-bye.